Debriefing Your Expat Life: Intercultural Transitions and Going Deeper

Unknown Speaker (0:02): Hello, welcome to Nomadic Diaries. My name is Doreen Cumberford. I'm your host. I would like you to meet today Daniel Yelowitz. Now Daniel is a senior faculty and thesis advisor for the Pacific University in Oregon in The United States.

Doreen Cumberford (0:20): He's also been on the senior faculty of the Intercultural Communications Institute. He has been an author, a consultant, and a training for several decades. His experience is not only deep, it is very wide. It is my privilege to introduce you to Daniel. So Daniel, please, can you give us just a couple of sentences on the arc of your storied career in the intercultural field as it started and where you sit now, please?

Daniel Yelowitz (0:54): Oh, it'll be hard to keep that real short, but I'll do what I can. I would say that my introduction, now that I think about it, was when I was born. And I don't mean that to be presumptuous, but I grew up in the heart of Manhattan in New York City. And so, of course, I was being introduced to people from all over the world, speaking many different languages, many different gradations to skin color and ethnicity and religion and so on. I mean, you know, I never really agreed with the idea of melting pot, more salad bowl, if you will.

Daniel Yelowitz (1:32): But that is when I was really first introduced to understanding that, you know, we're not cookie cutters as human beings. But more on the professional level, I would say that it really began in hyperconscious way when I was a young professor at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And that was also, I had been there for about ten years. I started there in the early 80s. And in 1989, there was a CHR International Conference in Boston.

Daniel Yelowitz (2:12): And I was pushed and propelled and moved to attend that conference. And that began, you know, a thirty seven or thirty eight year period where I just immersed myself in all kinds of intercultural issues. Lot through CITR International, CITR USA, but also through the ICI, Intercultural Communications Institute and SIC and WIC. So, there have been, I guess, two starting points. One was at birth and one was as a young emerging professor.

Doreen Cumberford (2:50): And so, you know, you've served this field for so long and been sort of a cornerstone ever since I've been involved, which is really only since I've been back from Saudi in the last fifteen years. You have been a mentor and a guide on the side to so many people. And so how do you feel that this dedication has changed who you have become and where you sit now in relationship to the field?

Daniel Yelowitz (3:24): That's a great question, Doreen. And I would say that one of the most interesting things is that when I got involved in the field of intercultural relations, intercultural communication, it my life became much bigger. It really expanded. And mostly that's because I had opportunities now to meet people, both professionally and personally, who were from six different continents. Yes.

Daniel Yelowitz (3:57): Including Antarctica, but that just grew the field for me and grew my understanding and so on. And so that changed the way I understood my life and my work and my career because it just opened things up and gave me opportunities I know I wouldn't have had otherwise. So I think that propelled me into a much deeper level of commitment, not only to learning in the field, but being able to give something back to it.

Unknown Speaker (4:31): Yes, Because

Daniel Yelowitz (4:32): I maybe like you or many other people, I didn't bring any formal training to it. Everything that I've done in the field is because of who I've worked with who's mentored me, where I've had opportunities to collaborate, whether it's planning a workshop or a week long course, or in the case of the new book that's just come out, which I know we'll talk about later, I've always had other people mentoring me and coaching and advising, supporting and working collegially.

Doreen Cumberford (5:04): Sure, sure. And that provides one with a very natural expansion of life. I mean, then life becomes more organic. And and that's kind of like this podcast because I have been able to, you know, so people saw this together from connections I had back in Saudi Arabia, in Japan, living in London. And it's been, me, it's been a wonderful way to sew all those disparate experiences and personnel together in one place, which feels good, right?

Daniel Yelowitz (5:42): It's a beautiful feeling. Yeah, your career in your work has exemplified what it is to live and think and work along intercultural lines. And, you know, the beautiful thing is that, as you said, it's come together in that way. And whether it's work or play or writing or research, workshopping, teaching or whatever, it just feels like the values that I espouse, much like yourself, I would imagine, are the values that I work and live with. That I'm not compartmentalizing at all.

Daniel Yelowitz (6:17): And so the people that I relate to, most deeply have, I would say, similar perceptions of the world and similar values. And it's easier to go deeper, if you will, because there is that common bond of understanding.

Doreen Cumberford (6:35): Yes, there's already an equalization of values across the board, and with that you have an opportunity, as you say, to go deeper. But also, I think it's an encouragement to stay curious, and it's an encouragement to stay in touch with change, because all of our cultures are changing all the time, right?

Daniel Yelowitz (7:01): But you know, it's interesting, and you picked out two of the words that have become among my most favorite, and it seems like out of all the 26 letters in the alphabet, the one that has been most meaningful to me is the letter C, because of all the words that we live that you've talked about. Curiosity, creativity, collectivity, communication, collaboration. Just all of these words fit with living an intercultural life.

Unknown Speaker (7:29): Yes. Yeah. And it's wonderful when you can yes, it's wonderful. Sorry. It's wonderful when you can live a life that feels like it's in alignment.

Daniel Yelowitz (7:40): That's a great a word. Yes. Sorry. No, it's a good point. I think about this.

Daniel Yelowitz (7:46): We're both writers. And so, you know, words do matter. Lives matter. Words matter. No, that's right on.

Daniel Yelowitz (7:53): That's why I smiled.

Doreen Cumberford (7:57): My next question for you is, you know, you've worked with a lot of people who have had to adapt. They've had to adapt in their personal lives and in their professional lives. And you've served, I know you've taught all these classes to people to help them adapt. What is the one question that you wish someone would ask you about this mysterious adaptation process that we all go through that no one ever asks you?

Daniel Yelowitz (8:28): I love that question. I've been thinking a about it. And finally, I think after some very vivid dreaming last night, the question came to me. And you well, I don't know if you'll recall it, but it was a buzzword question back in the years when we were doing, the Summer Institute and the Winter Institute, and intercultural communication, which was held in various places. But, the latter years for the summer was at Reed College in Portland, Oregon, and all the faculty would get up, we'd be holding a big ball.

Daniel Yelowitz (9:00): Tell me if you remember this, if you were ever at the Summer Institute.

Unknown Speaker (9:03): I was.

Daniel Yelowitz (9:04): Yep. So you might remember us talking about our burning question.

Unknown Speaker (9:08): Yes.

Daniel Yelowitz (9:09): Does that sound familiar? Oh, yes. Has been my burning question, and I ask it all the time, whether I'm doing clinical work as a therapist or teaching or training, and people open up. They talk. They want to be heard and understood.

Daniel Yelowitz (9:26): And the big question that I ask, which I wish sometimes people would ask me, it's both very simple and very profound. Sorry for the big lead up, but it's three words, and when you put them together, it's a very powerful question. The question is simply, is there more?

Unknown Speaker (9:42): Ah, that's great.

Daniel Yelowitz (9:44): And because what it does is it enjoins a deeper dialogue, because we're running at the surface and we're running, you know, at all kilometers per hour and miles per hour from one thing to the next. And that is a question that encourages people to really sit and take in the moment. Is there more? Because that's where the headlines fall away and the real story comes out. And I know in my work as a therapist, when a client hears that question, it's the opportunity for them to go into greater depth and detail and not to feel rushed or panicked or whatever, if they so choose.

Daniel Yelowitz (10:27): But it's an indication of caring from the questioner. And

Doreen Cumberford (10:32): Yes. Curiosity, caring, building connection, all of that. Maybe we could title this episode, Expat Lifestyles, Intercultural Living. Is there more?

Daniel Yelowitz (10:42): Well, I would welcome that simply because it's the opportunity to deepen the response. Yes. As opposed to an answer. I really believe in responses. That's a whole other piece of work if you're interested, but, I just think it enjoins a dialogue.

Unknown Speaker (11:00): Yes. Yeah.

Daniel Yelowitz (11:01): It matters rather than getting first response and then just moving on instantly. It's like, well, let's unpack this a little bit more. Tell me what else has brought you to that statement and is helping you to think further beyond it.

Doreen Cumberford (11:15): And maybe we could ask that question of ourselves as listeners to this. Maybe we could ask ourselves, you know, wherever we are on our global journeys or our expat lifestyles or our repat lifestyles, you know, I think sometimes asking ourselves is the question, is there more? Would be useful because I think we're, like you said, we're living in such a fast paced life and our lives have to change on a dime sometimes in very radical ways.

Daniel Yelowitz (11:45): It's a lot, you're so right, and it's a lot about adaptation. And I love that you've brought the word curiosity up repeatedly already, because that question is the exemplification of curiosity. What it's saying is I care. I'm here. I wanna hear your story.

Daniel Yelowitz (12:03): I wanna hear the narrative under that story. And, you know, let it just come out as it needs to. And, sometimes, as you said in your question, I would love to get asked that question when I'm giving content or material and someone would raise their hand and just say, Can you tell me more about that? Because I'm asking it all the time, but it's not a question that gets asked to me. So, that would be my long winded response to that question.

Unknown Speaker (12:30): Okay, that's very good, very clear. Claro, as we say around here.

Unknown Speaker (12:34): Collaro, collaro kisi.

Doreen Cumberford (12:37): Know, intercultural training, it's frequently sort of the canary in the coal mine, you know. People go to a session and we download information about a different culture that they're either moving out of or moving into. And sometimes this training really helps prepare us. I've had some that did not prepare me for anything, but sometimes they're very effective and can make a big difference. Where do you see intercultural training help the most?

Doreen Cumberford (13:15): What is the biggest lift that when people participate and go to these things? Because I'm sure a lot of listeners are going, Yes, I've been to those.

Daniel Yelowitz (13:27): Well, again, everyone's going to respond and react differently because we know we have our different triggers and charges and restimulations and whatever. But I have found that when I attend, whether as a participant or a trainer or a leader, in a group that way, that the level of attention is much higher than at other conferences and organizations that I go to. It's as though you enter and you put on a cloak of greater sensitivity and attention upon entering a training room or conference or whatever, because you want to be at your best, and you understand, I think, that there are going to be challenges that you're not even aware of that are going to be coming at you. Yes. And, know, that's the adaptation piece that you just talked about.

Daniel Yelowitz (14:23): The the ability to be able to pivot, on a word or a sentence or whatever. And so I I would say that it this training in this field has really helped to create a greater level of linguistic sensitivity and awareness for me. Just recognizing the importance and the power of words, but particularly in an intercultural context where we literally don't all speak the same language. So it comes down to what can I say that will be understood the most profoundly? So, I think it's that and the ability to I think the other word that I already mentioned is the ability to pivot.

Daniel Yelowitz (15:12): So, you're in one place, you're saying something, and then it sits, and then someone responds, and you're in that moment, you're having to pivot to what they're saying. You're having to let go of where you were, because now there's new input, and new insight, and you have to hold that and then there's more. So, back to the question, is there more? There's always more, and to me it becomes a question of taking in as much as you can, and asking for clarification or amplification if something is not clear. And that comes purely from curiosity.

Daniel Yelowitz (15:50): We wouldn't ask for clarification or amplification if we weren't curious. Yes. So, the curiosity is what impels us to move more deeply into content and context. And so that also means that we have to have the ability to hold multiple perspectives. And I think that that's, you know, an elegant and critical part of the work.

Doreen Cumberford (16:13): Yeah, that's a key way to look at it. And also that comes back to, is there more? Being curious about what else we need to know or want to know, or what we're available to know. Because I think with so many triggers and distractions in life, sometimes the intercultural piece is sort of I see this living in a foreign country, but it gets a little wiped clean depending on my bandwidth. Do I have the time to and the energy to stop and consider and listen to statement.

Unknown Speaker (16:57): Do I have the time, does the other person have the time to interact and to answer the questions? Because that, it's all it all comes down to time in a way.

Daniel Yelowitz (17:08): Well, I think that's a big part of it, and the other, which almost runs against so many of our impulses as human beings, is to learn how to suspend judgment. Big breath. You know, we're judging and being judged all the time, and I find that when I'm doing intercultural work at whatever level, I get into trouble much more quickly if I find that I'm bound up into making judgments about someone or what they're saying or how they're responding or reacting, you can't help but note it. But if that's where you go, you're shutting down a lot of other lines of communication.

Unknown Speaker (17:52): Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Judgment is

Daniel Yelowitz (17:56): not yeah. That doesn't serve anybody. Right? And so it's almost a question of unlearning. Unlearning the levels and the degrees of judgment that we're taught.

Daniel Yelowitz (18:11): We're taught those things. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't discriminate. I don't mean about being discriminatory toward people, but discriminate in terms of understanding what someone is saying and even having opinions. But opinions are different to me than judgment. I'll leave it at that, but I think that that

Unknown Speaker (18:30): is

Daniel Yelowitz (18:31): very, very important.

Doreen Cumberford (18:33): And that's a very clear answer. So, I have another well, in questions that I've always wanted to ask you is, what's the one piece of advice you don't give anymore because you've learned that it actually doesn't help people?

Daniel Yelowitz (18:52): This is also one of my favorite questions of those that you were wanting to share with me, and I've never been asked this question, so it really is coming out of, you know, a different place. And, you know, lot of the things that think I say and other people say in teaching and training are somewhat cliche, you know, in terms of dispelling advice and information and wanting to be supportive. And one, there's many, but I think the one that I'm going to work with here to respond to your question is, it's again three words, and it's about take your time. Take your time. Because people are going to do that or not, right?

Daniel Yelowitz (19:36): And what that means to me in terms of time, you may have a very different concept about time. So, what does that actually mean, particularly in an intercultural context? Right? You would know there's manana time, there's the New York minute, there's all kinds of expressions. And so I have found that when I have said that, it doesn't further anything.

Daniel Yelowitz (19:58): Right. I mean, I would maybe it relaxes the person a little bit, or maybe it makes them more tense, but it's really not I've just never found that that gets it moves an agenda anywhere, or it moves anyone. Sure. So, that's the one I would say is that I don't say that anymore. People will do that or not.

Daniel Yelowitz (20:19): They don't, telling them to do so or advising them. I'm just not sure if it makes that much of a difference.

Doreen Cumberford (20:25): I hear you. I understand because as interculturalists, we know that, as you said, our experience of time varies from body to body. From body to body, head to head, person to person, culture to culture. And I'm frequently aware of that living in Mexico.

Unknown Speaker (20:48): Is that right?

Doreen Cumberford (20:49): Yeah, yeah. And I was very much more aware of it living in Saudi Arabia, listening to the five calls of prayer every day. Because for me, that gave me a steadiness. It wasn't that I was changing religions or in any way becoming a Muslim. However, it was a marker of time where I would go, Oh my goodness, four hours have passed or five hours have passed.

Doreen Cumberford (21:19): How have I been spending my time? What am I focusing on? Have I been productive? Am I It just brought up a lot of questions for me about the use of time that I'd never experienced before, so I will always be grateful for that.

Daniel Yelowitz (21:34): Well, I appreciate your saying that, and I think a lot about this, and actually it's ended up somehow finding its way into each of the books I've written. I've written something about time, and in particular, if you think about the vocabulary around time, time has been very much commodified. Yes. And that's it's a human invention, I mean, in the sense of the way we define it and the way we prescribe it and so on. But if you think about the words, we talk about killing time, spending time, wasting time, using time, managing time.

Daniel Yelowitz (22:11): All of these things have to do with a certain control of time.

Doreen Cumberford (22:17): And they feel very Western to me, by the way.

Daniel Yelowitz (22:20): Absolutely. I don't know. I don't have the life experience that you do, having lived, you know, as an expat or a resident or whatever in many, many different cultures, non Western cultures. Yes. And so I can't say if other cultures embed the use of commodification terms around time or not.

Daniel Yelowitz (22:41): But in the West, we have done that and that's not the intention of time. No. Time is fluid. Time is fluent. It just moves and it flows, and yet we insist on breaking it down into nanoseconds.

Daniel Yelowitz (22:57): And I think that that gets us away sometimes from the intimacy of living.

Doreen Cumberford (23:03): I think it's also a way to manage life when we feel like it's unmanageable.

Daniel Yelowitz (23:12): Well, and that's a positive, right? I mean, are positive consequences to thinking about the words that we use with time and even how we break time down. Because it's, again, it's communication. Have a common understanding. What time will we meet?

Daniel Yelowitz (23:30): How long will we be together for? I mean, things create or give the possibility of creating a situation where we don't have to be worried or anxious about that period of time. Yeah. Because there's understandings and agreements around that, that can be very, very helpful.

Unknown Speaker (23:51): Yes, it's both.

Unknown Speaker (23:52): It's

Doreen Cumberford (23:53): this and. Well, thank you for that. Now we're going to take a little bit of a left turn here. One of the it was not the first time I met you, but I think you had been my professor a couple of times at the Summer Institute of Intercultural Training. And then I was on an adventure with you in Santa Fe, New Mexico, when you taught an entire week on the subject of debriefing.

Unknown Speaker (24:20): Now,

Doreen Cumberford (24:22): and I've always looked to you as being the professor of debriefing, the sensei. As you know, I'm currently finishing this book for repatriating people, people moving back home. And I'm wondering, there do you think that there's a place for the expatriating person or repatriating person to consider and use the topic of debriefing?

Daniel Yelowitz (24:53): It's a great lead into the topic, I have to say, because I think a lot about the utility and the usefulness of it. And just to pull back a little bit for perspective or context, to me, again, it's a three word definition. I guess I'm working in threes today. Very good. But when I think about debriefing, I think about reflection upon experience.

Daniel Yelowitz (25:18): I mean, that's a fairly simple way to summarize what is a debriefing. So, for the expat or for anyone who's going through many of the transitions and rituals and markers, rites of passage, debriefing is that opportunity that we make and we take, it's conscious and conscientious, to reflect back on something, to try to make sense of it, to try to organize it in the larger schema of our life or schemata of our life. And that is so important because it helps us in reflecting on something that has happened that we've experienced or observed. It also gives us power, resilience, and strength if what happened didn't align with something that we wanted. If we debrief it, we then can build the muscle to say, well, I would change this or that.

Daniel Yelowitz (26:17): Would shift this or that. That comes from understanding, and that comes from debriefing. I'm thinking, for example, of movies do this famously, and I'm thinking of the movie Apollo 13. I don't know if that's one that you've seen. Yes.

Daniel Yelowitz (26:33): It goes back a while, but you know, giving the astronauts returning back from such an other literally otherworldly experience, there needs to be that opportunity to sit back and look at what just happened. Yes, yes. Before we run off to the next adventure and the next journey or whatever, it's an inflection point. It's a pause point, and it only happens if we make it happen. And again, to activate the word that one of the key words from our discussion thus far, it has to do with having curiosity.

Doreen Cumberford (27:11): Yes. And I actually interviewed an astronaut.

Unknown Speaker (27:15): Did you really? That's Sadly,

Unknown Speaker (27:19): it was not approved, that he could talk to me, but he did talk to me off of the record.

Unknown Speaker (27:24): Yes.

Doreen Cumberford (27:25): And I was really quite amazed at the processes and the depth of the debriefing processes that they have to go through.

Daniel Yelowitz (27:34): Right. Yes, it's very powerful and empowering. I would

Unknown Speaker (27:38): love to do it. I'd love to try

Unknown Speaker (27:40): it. Try debriefing?

Unknown Speaker (27:43): Well, I'd just love to be present to an astronaut's debriefing to see how deep it goes.

Daniel Yelowitz (27:50): It's, you know, it's fascinating. I think perhaps you've had other opportunities, but I know when I've sat in faculty meetings and we've talked about particular experiences, what I'm after is, whether I'm chairing the meeting or just participating in it, I really want to know what people's reflections are. What did you learn from this? What was your takeaway? What was scary?

Daniel Yelowitz (28:16): What was enjoyable? But it's not just what questions, you know, where you just can give answers. It's the quality. You know, how did that make you feel? Or how did that change something?

Daniel Yelowitz (28:28): And to me, we're all the better off when we take the opportunity to debrief, whether it's solitary and writing in a diary or a journal, which is one form of debriefing. We're sitting around with a group of friends talking about an experience that you all just had. Yes. You know, I think an experience that I had for many years was singing in a hospice choir in my hometown here in Western Massachusetts. And, you know we would have a pre briefing, because oftentimes we would go to the bedside of someone who was actively dying, and we would be invited in by a family member, or a dear friend, or whatever.

Daniel Yelowitz (29:11): Sometimes right to their bedside or their bedroom or living room or whatever. And more than once I had the experience of having someone pass away as we were singing. And what our small group of singers would do is we would kind of lock in with each other. That was the pre brief, the preparation, the readiness, the emotional, the psychic, the spiritual, if you will. And then importantly, after we were done, we would also come back together and do a debrief.

Daniel Yelowitz (29:42): And make sure that we were all okay with each other, we were okay with the event or the situation, and if not, we would reflect on what didn't work. And the immediacy of that to an event is really, really important. Sure. It's much more difficult to debrief something ten years later, right? Possibly, yeah.

Daniel Yelowitz (30:03): Yeah. Because you lose the freshness. So, that was our modus operandi, pre brief activity debrief. And I've done that in many, many other places. And to me, it just feels like good living.

Doreen Cumberford (30:17): Yes, and it's very healing, think. I've noticed in the community from the corporation that we worked for overseas, that when there's a gathering and there's people who live there at even in different eras, would be having dinner with someone who was there ten years prior to our being there. But we have so many notes and comments and subtle, even language that we have in common. And it's just really fun to do that because there's a sense of sort of sewing all of the parts of your life together. And to me, it always feels healing.

Daniel Yelowitz (30:57): Yeah, that's a great word to use. And I'll give you a current example from this past weekend. I was gifted to be able to get together with my brothers, a family reunion. We gathered in New York City for four days where we all grew up, and I hadn't been there for quite some time. And, I was able to find some things for each of my brothers that I thought would surprise them, which were letters that I had written to them, because I was the oldest, when they were in sleepaway camp as campers.

Daniel Yelowitz (31:29): Oh, how cute. And so, you know, we're talking, you know, easily fifty to sixty years, right? From where I am now, you know, as an elder to where we were when I was a young teenager and they were single digits, and I would write to them at camp, And that was in our sense, that was a debriefing. Were going through that we hadn't experienced together at the same time, but the letter writing connected us.

Unknown Speaker (31:56): Excellent.

Daniel Yelowitz (31:56): And so there's just so many different ways to do that, And what I think it does, just not to be redundant, is it really helps to nurture relationships.

Doreen Cumberford (32:06): Okay. So I'll keep a section in the book. Thank you for that. Do you recommend that people try it for themselves and where might they start?

Daniel Yelowitz (32:17): Well, I do. And I think sometimes debriefing is unconscious. All right. I mean, as much as I'm proposing it that there are methods and technologies and strategies, and I've invested decades, you know, learning and teaching about this. But on the simplest and yet equally profound level, when we pull away from a situation, because something has triggered us, or upset us or whatever, and we remove ourselves from a situation and we are thinking about that situation and what happened, that is a form of debriefing.

Daniel Yelowitz (32:54): Yes. It doesn't have to be written or journalized or put into a group with formal questions and so on. So, I think it can be very healthy in a situation where one is feeling conflict or disagreement or, you know, very strong feelings. I sometimes think that the less said the better in those moments, because it's very hard to think rationally when we're triggered,

Unknown Speaker (33:22): right? Yes.

Daniel Yelowitz (33:23): In a sense, that's the definition of a trigger, something that brings us off course, where we lose ourselves, we lose our emotional regulation, we become dysregulated, and so on. And so, you know, as I've learned to do this, it's made my life healthier, because I find that I'm not responding in the moment as negatively as I might if I did respond in that moment. So, I'm doing kind of an emotional debrief in my mind to try to get straight away, okay, what just happened? What's in everyone's best interest in terms of what I should say and respond? What's in my best interest?

Daniel Yelowitz (34:00): So, mean, I'm a strong proponent of the importance of debriefing and also keep it simple. It does not have to be an engineered technology. You can get into vocabulary around debriefing and get into a lot of the theory. You spent a week with me in that class, So there's a lot there. Yes.

Daniel Yelowitz (34:21): And so I think for people who are really interested in coaching and teaching and training, consulting, you do want to learn those things because you're going to be working with them actively. Sure. But in our day to day, moment to moment lives, I think it's helpful if we have the interest and the skills to say, I need to reflect on that. I need to try to understand what just happened. And if I just launch into whatever's next, I'm not giving myself that opportunity.

Unknown Speaker (34:49): So maybe that would be a good opportunity to tell oneself to take your time.

Daniel Yelowitz (34:55): Right. And your point as mine is that's what we have to tell ourselves. Right? I can't tell you take your time because your time and my time don't align necessarily. I

Unknown Speaker (35:07): That's why we're debriefing. That works.

Daniel Yelowitz (35:09): Yes, it does. You've picked up one of the very interesting ironies of the vocabulary itself. But in fact, I find that I'm debriefing very, very constantly through the day and it's not a half an hour process all the time. Sometimes I have a phone call with a friend to debrief something with them and we're walking through that and it can get heavy and ponderous and so on. But sometimes it's just, if you will, a quick minute to say, 'Let me check-in with myself.' Okay.

Unknown Speaker (35:43): Well, thank you for

Doreen Cumberford (35:44): giving us the variety of ways to debrief and amounts of time that we might spend. Starting to wrap up, can you tell me about this book? You have been on this journey with this book for some time with Sandy Fowler. It's, from my understanding, it's about all the personalities and the people who were instrumental in creating the topic that we now called intercultural training. Correct?

Daniel Yelowitz (36:17): Yeah. There's words for it, the intercultural field, intercultural communication, interculturalism, but they're all of a piece. So, yes. So how would you like me to debrief

Doreen Cumberford (36:30): I would love to so our audience I'm sure would love to know a little bit about the book and you know maybe one of these people and how many people did you interview for the book and what do we what can we learn from the book? Maybe what could be our takeaway from reading the book?

Daniel Yelowitz (36:52): Yeah, it's it's great to have the opportunity to reflect now on this book because for the last three years it's been all about writing and editing. And as you know, as published writer, dealing with the publisher and whatnot, but this was a really interesting, process. Sandy came up with this idea, because there were many of the pioneers and even the founders of the field who had fascinating histories, fascinating life stories that weren't being captured, and people were dying off. I mean, the field was largely founded by Ned Hall in the late 1950s and so on. And, you know, after we'd lost a few more of our key people from this field, she came along with this and I had been thinking about it myself that the field itself needs a document that really helps people to understand how it was invented.

Daniel Yelowitz (37:51): And the idea behind this book was to get as many of the pioneers of the field as were still alive who met certain criteria to write about their experience, their life experience. Now, the challenge I think that I had as an editor was to help the writers, and these are very, very serious, scholarly folks. I mean between the 12 of them it wouldn't surprise me if they had individually published, collectively a 100 books as writers. One of our authors just wrote his twenty first book last year. And these are all people in their mid to late 80s and into their 90s.

Daniel Yelowitz (38:36): I think our oldest is in his mid 90s and still productive.

Unknown Speaker (38:40): That's fabulous.

Daniel Yelowitz (38:41): It is fabulous. And the fact that we got these stories and got them into a book and that these writers, authors, thinkers are still alive, what it does is it gives readers, the reading audience, an opportunity to understand how is a field built. I mean, we don't have this option. If you go to almost any professional field, it was built a long time ago. It continues to evolve.

Daniel Yelowitz (39:09): But we're going back to a time where this field didn't even exist. So, what were the paths that people got on and then jumped on and off from and back onto to actually build something that's called interculturalism or intercultural communications or whatever? So these are individual stories that then, as one reads the book, person A, story A meets story C, and they build something. And so there's a path that has been forged between the two of them. One of them veers off to do another project and meets story G.

Daniel Yelowitz (39:47): And, you know, over time these people circulated around, built things on their own, invited other people in, and built a field. And so the cover photo, which I took, at Acadia National Park up in Maine, is of a wooden walkway that, in a forest that just disappears. I mean, goes long into the future or into the distance and then it trails off and we use that as our kind of opening salvo or opening photo because we all blaze our own trail, don't we? And we don't as we blaze it, we don't know where it's going, right? Because we haven't yet experienced the future.

Daniel Yelowitz (40:33): So, we wanted to kind of deal with this notion of creating something and yet not knowing where that leads us. And so these stories, these narratives are bona fide opportunities to learn about how not only is a professional field created, but how is a life created. And if I can just say a little bit more about this, the biggest challenge was to get these 12 very senior, very accomplished writers, people, human beings, to not just write about their experience, because they're practitioners, they just wanted to write about what they did, what they accomplished, what they achieved, which is enormous. What Sandy and I were more interested in, because we thought it would make for a more interesting book, was to get them to step back and reflect on how there it is, right? It's a book about debriefing, ultimately.

Daniel Yelowitz (41:32): I wouldn't say it to them necessarily, but there's nothing, there's no harm in saying that. Sure. The idea is that we ask them to step back, look at what they've done, and how did that make sense in their lives? How did it propel their careers, their families, their understanding of the world? And so that's really what it is.

Daniel Yelowitz (41:54): It's 12 case studies along with an introduction and a conclusion by the editors, myself and Sandy, but the stories are standalone stories. And yet they all they intertwine with each other, because these are people who became friends and colleagues and, communicants with one another. And to Sandy's credit, she knew every one of them and had had personal friendships and relationships with many of them for decades. I knew fewer of them because I wasn't of that generation. I was too young to be a pioneer or a founder, but not too young to be an editor and a writer.

Daniel Yelowitz (42:32): And so we just to say one of the fascinating features of the process was that we would collectively get on Zoom every quarter for two and a half years. Sometimes we'd miss one or two people, but we had people from Japan, Canada, people from India who were writing into this book, and we would collect each other together, collect ourselves as a group, and talk about the process. Talk about where people got stuck. Where were their challenges? Can someone help me with this passage?

Daniel Yelowitz (43:04): And it became a collective book, a collaborative book. We actually invited the writers to send their drafts to all the other authors so that, of course, Sandy and I held the lead as far as being, the editors. I invited them to edit each other. Yeah, good. And get to know each other and the level of curiosity and concern, was very, very poignant, very powerful.

Unknown Speaker (43:34): So, where can people find what is the name of the book and where can people find it?

Daniel Yelowitz (43:39): Sure. Sure. So it's published by, Palgrave Macmillan Publishers, and it's called Creating the Intercultural Legacies from the Pioneers.

Unknown Speaker (43:56): All of this is in the show notes. I have all the details, and I promise they will be in the show notes.

Daniel Yelowitz (44:01): Excellent, excellent. It's, you know, it's available directly from the publisher. We have a QR code for a 20% coupon, which I think if I haven't sent it to you, I will, and I would encourage people to use it. It's only good for maybe until the March, and then it goes away. Okay.

Daniel Yelowitz (44:21): But it's also available from Amazon for those folks who

Unknown Speaker (44:24): Oh, Amazon's great. Yeah.

Daniel Yelowitz (44:26): So that's another option or from, you know, from the publisher or from me personally or Sandy if they want it signed and, you know, signified. We have copies that we can sell as individuals as well.

Unknown Speaker (44:42): And if people want to follow you, where can they follow you directly, Daniel?

Daniel Yelowitz (44:49): Well, I do have a website. That would be one way. I'm not, I will say, somewhat to my embarrassment, I'm not a big user of, social media, but I do have a website. It's danielyalowitz.com. And you have my email address and I do respond to anything and anyone who writes to me will get a response.

Daniel Yelowitz (45:11): That's just a commitment that I have made. And so there's information about the book on the website. And again, if people want to if they have questions about the book or anything else. And we will be doing some programming in the future through SEATAR USA. And I hope through some conferences and I can let you know about that, so maybe you can pass that on to your audience as well.

Daniel Yelowitz (45:40): But the idea is to keep the book alive because it's about live people.

Unknown Speaker (45:43): Yes. Yes. To keep them all alive as long as possible.

Daniel Yelowitz (45:48): Right, I mean the lives are full of life, and I mean I know that's true about any book that deals with biographies and autobiographies, but this one is just so special, because you really feel like people are introducing themselves into a world that didn't exist when they started.

Unknown Speaker (46:06): Yeah, that's wonderful.

Unknown Speaker (46:07): That they help to build.

Unknown Speaker (46:09): Well, thank you. This has been wonderful. Is there more?

Daniel Yelowitz (46:16): Well, there's always more. But on this one, I think the point about debriefing that we talked about and the importance of understanding language and culture and so on, it's just so impactful, and I just want to encourage your audience. It's a great reading experience, but also we learn things about life every time we read a book, and to me the power of debriefing is embedded in every page of this book. Yeah. And so I really encourage people to try it out and enjoy it, and let me know what you think.

Doreen Cumberford (46:52): And so we learn a lot about life just by listening to The Matty Diaries, and this was Daniel Yalowitz. You for inviting

Daniel Yelowitz (47:02): me, Doreen, and I wish you well going forward.

Doreen Cumberford (47:06): And back to you. And as we say at the end of these broadcasts, Asta Luego, Sayonara and Ma Salama.

Unknown Speaker (47:16): I'll just add Namaste.

Unknown Speaker (47:21): So there we have it, another story and another window into this extraordinary life we've chosen. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. A fellow expat or a global nomad. One person who gets it. I'm Doreen Cumberford.

Unknown Speaker (47:40): And until next time, remember, you can map the move, you cannot map the metamorphosis.